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	<title>Comments on: Sovereignty</title>
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	<description>Unifying America for Freedom&#039;s Cause</description>
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		<title>By: Hawk</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7149</link>
		<dc:creator>Hawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7149</guid>
		<description>I most agree with Cave. I&#039;m a little nervous about their sovereignty issue because I do think we went in as liberators, we said it enough and it will rile the world if we change that perception. We need to handle this with kid gloves and have secret negotiations with the Iraqi government so they understand the danger to themselves if we withdraw too fast. Their lives would definitely be at stake without our help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I most agree with Cave. I&#8217;m a little nervous about their sovereignty issue because I do think we went in as liberators, we said it enough and it will rile the world if we change that perception. We need to handle this with kid gloves and have secret negotiations with the Iraqi government so they understand the danger to themselves if we withdraw too fast. Their lives would definitely be at stake without our help.</p>
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		<title>By: Cavetrollhead</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7146</link>
		<dc:creator>Cavetrollhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7146</guid>
		<description>Our ostensible reason to go to Iraq was not only to liberate as we all know.  That was just a pathos based argument.  

Also, technically, the justification of it was because they violated the ceasefire agreements of Desert Storm.  (The ceasefire became null when they violated the agreements of it.  It wasn&#039;t a new war as far as we were concerned, but a continuation of Desert Storm.  There violated the No-fly Zone, Weapons inspections, fired on US aircraft (futile as it was), etc.  Albeit the ceasefire was not a unilateral agreement, I think, Saddam violated it before we.  And the UN is fast becoming anti US anyway and is not looking out for us so why let them tie our hands.)

Besides the point is not weather we should have invaded Iraq.  That is a mute point.  (Hind site is 20/20).  The question is, do we set a timetable for withdrawal at the request of the government there.  The obvious answer to me is no.  Why would we?  As long as they want us to stay- we aught to stay on our terms.   And as long as leaving may pose a threat to the US, we ought to leave on our terms.      Heck, we just barely got the yellow cake out and who knows what else there is to clean.  When we are sure that there is no way the terrorists can use the situation in Iraq to hurt us, then we can leave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our ostensible reason to go to Iraq was not only to liberate as we all know.  That was just a pathos based argument.  </p>
<p>Also, technically, the justification of it was because they violated the ceasefire agreements of Desert Storm.  (The ceasefire became null when they violated the agreements of it.  It wasn&#8217;t a new war as far as we were concerned, but a continuation of Desert Storm.  There violated the No-fly Zone, Weapons inspections, fired on US aircraft (futile as it was), etc.  Albeit the ceasefire was not a unilateral agreement, I think, Saddam violated it before we.  And the UN is fast becoming anti US anyway and is not looking out for us so why let them tie our hands.)</p>
<p>Besides the point is not weather we should have invaded Iraq.  That is a mute point.  (Hind site is 20/20).  The question is, do we set a timetable for withdrawal at the request of the government there.  The obvious answer to me is no.  Why would we?  As long as they want us to stay- we aught to stay on our terms.   And as long as leaving may pose a threat to the US, we ought to leave on our terms.      Heck, we just barely got the yellow cake out and who knows what else there is to clean.  When we are sure that there is no way the terrorists can use the situation in Iraq to hurt us, then we can leave.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Fan</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7141</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7141</guid>
		<description>Germany declared war on most of Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. It was a world war. Iraq was not in a state of war. We went in as liberators. We did not go into WWII as liberators, we went in to defeat Germany and Japan. Huge difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Germany declared war on most of Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. It was a world war. Iraq was not in a state of war. We went in as liberators. We did not go into WWII as liberators, we went in to defeat Germany and Japan. Huge difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Cavetrollhead</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7139</link>
		<dc:creator>Cavetrollhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7139</guid>
		<description>Good points SGS, I agree whole heartedly that we completely boched it on the points that you mentioned. and as for the date of formal sovereignty in Japan again we did it right back then, and maybe wrong this time.  But in practical terms, the voting process is a technicality as far as domestic security was concerned.  Iraq was not secure then and is not secure now. 

And though the Japanese weren&#039;t as suppressed as Iraq, the Germans were.  Try hiding a Jew in your house in WWII Germany, or in fact being a Jew or any number of other people who Hitler had exterminated.  Try speaking your mind in WWI Germany.  WWII  Germany and Iraq are very similar.

As far as being at war with the &quot;people&quot; of a country, instead of the dictator.  I fail to see much difference between Hitler and Sadaam.  Hitler was elected as a wolf in sheep&#039;s clothing.  Sadaam took power by force but also with a lot of popular support.  That is the only real difference.  Once in power, there is no real difference.  Germany never attacked us either.

As far as occupiers, we are not in Iraq contrary to the will of the government there.  The want us there.  WE ARE ONLY REJECTING A TIMETABLE for withdrawal.   They haven&#039;t asked us to leave.  They have simply asked us to set a date and in effect let our enemies there know how long to LIE LOW, STOCKPILE  WEAPONS, AND PLAN BEFORE THEY BURST UPON THE SCENE TO REAP HAVOC ON THE IRAQIS and the democratic leaders there. - Upon which time, you can be sure, if the government survives a coup, they will ask for our help, and unless Obama is the president, (God Help us) we will be going back and have to start from scratch with a more powerful enemy.

KEY POINT: The Iraqi gvt.  HAS NOT ASKED US TO LEAVE.  Therefore we are not the occupiers that the Islamic extremists want to convince the world we are.  (though even if they do ask us to leave, we need to make sure doing so won&#039;t facilitate an attack on the US in any way.  

BTW, have we found all of the yellow cake?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points SGS, I agree whole heartedly that we completely boched it on the points that you mentioned. and as for the date of formal sovereignty in Japan again we did it right back then, and maybe wrong this time.  But in practical terms, the voting process is a technicality as far as domestic security was concerned.  Iraq was not secure then and is not secure now. </p>
<p>And though the Japanese weren&#8217;t as suppressed as Iraq, the Germans were.  Try hiding a Jew in your house in WWII Germany, or in fact being a Jew or any number of other people who Hitler had exterminated.  Try speaking your mind in WWI Germany.  WWII  Germany and Iraq are very similar.</p>
<p>As far as being at war with the &#8220;people&#8221; of a country, instead of the dictator.  I fail to see much difference between Hitler and Sadaam.  Hitler was elected as a wolf in sheep&#8217;s clothing.  Sadaam took power by force but also with a lot of popular support.  That is the only real difference.  Once in power, there is no real difference.  Germany never attacked us either.</p>
<p>As far as occupiers, we are not in Iraq contrary to the will of the government there.  The want us there.  WE ARE ONLY REJECTING A TIMETABLE for withdrawal.   They haven&#8217;t asked us to leave.  They have simply asked us to set a date and in effect let our enemies there know how long to LIE LOW, STOCKPILE  WEAPONS, AND PLAN BEFORE THEY BURST UPON THE SCENE TO REAP HAVOC ON THE IRAQIS and the democratic leaders there. &#8211; Upon which time, you can be sure, if the government survives a coup, they will ask for our help, and unless Obama is the president, (God Help us) we will be going back and have to start from scratch with a more powerful enemy.</p>
<p>KEY POINT: The Iraqi gvt.  HAS NOT ASKED US TO LEAVE.  Therefore we are not the occupiers that the Islamic extremists want to convince the world we are.  (though even if they do ask us to leave, we need to make sure doing so won&#8217;t facilitate an attack on the US in any way.  </p>
<p>BTW, have we found all of the yellow cake?</p>
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		<title>By: Joy Bischoff</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7135</link>
		<dc:creator>Joy Bischoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7135</guid>
		<description>Additionally, we were attacked by Japan and we were at war with the nations of Japan and Germany. We were not at war with the people of Iraq. We went there to free them from an oppressive leader. To be occupiers over defeated nations is one thing, to be occupiers over a nation we freed from oppression is another. There are many other differences but I&#039;ve written about that ad naseum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Additionally, we were attacked by Japan and we were at war with the nations of Japan and Germany. We were not at war with the people of Iraq. We went there to free them from an oppressive leader. To be occupiers over defeated nations is one thing, to be occupiers over a nation we freed from oppression is another. There are many other differences but I&#8217;ve written about that ad naseum.</p>
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		<title>By: SGS</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7132</link>
		<dc:creator>SGS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7132</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s what I found from a quick reading regarding Japanese government.  We need to recognize a few factors that played into Japaneses&#039; favor, over Iraqi.  First, they were industrious people, and they were not oppressed.  Second, their economy were threatened to be ruined until Korean War when US Government paid Japanese government huge amount of money.  Anyway, here is some of the differences in how the governments was established (all from &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_of_the_Allied_Powers&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wiki&lt;/a&gt;):

- MacArthur had a belief in that his - and by proxy the American – presence as Supreme Commander was a holy one.  This is unlikely our own Iraqi &quot;Ambassador&quot; which made a huge mess before he was replaced.

- Some of these [several hundred U.S. civil servants as well as military personnel]  effectively wrote a first draft of the Japan Constitution, which the Diet [Japanese legislative] then ratified after a few amendments.  With Iraq, it was the other way around.  We advised them on what to write in the constitution, but they wrote it from ground up.

- Douglas MacArthur and his SCAP staff played a primary role to exonerate Emperor Sh?wa and all members of the imperial family implicated in the war.  Need I to say &quot;debaathification&quot;, where the members of Saddam&#039;s party was guilty by association, and strictly forbidded from serving in any leadership positions?

- Above the political and economic control SCAP had for the seven years following Japan’s surrender [, 1945 until 1952], SCAP also had strict control over all of the Japanese media.

I could not find, quickly, any article that go into depth on Japaneses&#039; voting process, like we saw with Iraq.  I suppose from the comment that we wrote most of their constitution, they do not have as much options as Iraqi had.  Oh yes, and we formally turned over the sovereignty to Japanese when the Treaty of San Francisco between the Allied Powers and Japan, came into force on April 28, 1952.  We already turned over sovereignty to Iraqi as soon as they approved their constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what I found from a quick reading regarding Japanese government.  We need to recognize a few factors that played into Japaneses&#8217; favor, over Iraqi.  First, they were industrious people, and they were not oppressed.  Second, their economy were threatened to be ruined until Korean War when US Government paid Japanese government huge amount of money.  Anyway, here is some of the differences in how the governments was established (all from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_of_the_Allied_Powers" rel="nofollow">Wiki</a>):</p>
<p>- MacArthur had a belief in that his &#8211; and by proxy the American – presence as Supreme Commander was a holy one.  This is unlikely our own Iraqi &#8220;Ambassador&#8221; which made a huge mess before he was replaced.</p>
<p>- Some of these [several hundred U.S. civil servants as well as military personnel]  effectively wrote a first draft of the Japan Constitution, which the Diet [Japanese legislative] then ratified after a few amendments.  With Iraq, it was the other way around.  We advised them on what to write in the constitution, but they wrote it from ground up.</p>
<p>- Douglas MacArthur and his SCAP staff played a primary role to exonerate Emperor Sh?wa and all members of the imperial family implicated in the war.  Need I to say &#8220;debaathification&#8221;, where the members of Saddam&#8217;s party was guilty by association, and strictly forbidded from serving in any leadership positions?</p>
<p>- Above the political and economic control SCAP had for the seven years following Japan’s surrender [, 1945 until 1952], SCAP also had strict control over all of the Japanese media.</p>
<p>I could not find, quickly, any article that go into depth on Japaneses&#8217; voting process, like we saw with Iraq.  I suppose from the comment that we wrote most of their constitution, they do not have as much options as Iraqi had.  Oh yes, and we formally turned over the sovereignty to Japanese when the Treaty of San Francisco between the Allied Powers and Japan, came into force on April 28, 1952.  We already turned over sovereignty to Iraqi as soon as they approved their constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: SGS</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7131</link>
		<dc:creator>SGS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7131</guid>
		<description>Cave, funny you would brought them up, because I did want to bring them up too.  I did not because I do not know how long was it before we turned the government over to the people in those countries.  I did not have the opportunity to read up on those governments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cave, funny you would brought them up, because I did want to bring them up too.  I did not because I do not know how long was it before we turned the government over to the people in those countries.  I did not have the opportunity to read up on those governments.</p>
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		<title>By: Cavetrollhead</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7130</link>
		<dc:creator>Cavetrollhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 03:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7130</guid>
		<description>Well just for a little history lesson.  Recall Japan and Germany after WWII.  They were &quot;sovereign nations too, but we many limits on them, including their military.  To this day Japan has legal restrictions on their military.  We ran Germany for years, and even threatened to topple the government if they didn&#039;t get a handle on their internal security.  And when we made that threat, they did get a hold of internal security.  It seems like people are forgetting how messy war is, including the aftermath of war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well just for a little history lesson.  Recall Japan and Germany after WWII.  They were &#8220;sovereign nations too, but we many limits on them, including their military.  To this day Japan has legal restrictions on their military.  We ran Germany for years, and even threatened to topple the government if they didn&#8217;t get a handle on their internal security.  And when we made that threat, they did get a hold of internal security.  It seems like people are forgetting how messy war is, including the aftermath of war.</p>
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		<title>By: SGS</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7117</link>
		<dc:creator>SGS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7117</guid>
		<description>Cave, we did not just &quot;allow them to run their affairs as much as we can.&quot;  We literally turned over the government to them.  Yes, Iraq may not be as ready as they thought they are, but the fact remains that we have turned it over to them.  We are not running their government, but merely advising them on how things should be done.  We have minimal policy making authority or role, if any.  We may have turned over the sovereignty too soon, but turned over we did.  And we have been pushing other countries to give Iraq the recognizance for some time.  We also have been working behind the scenes at UN to get Iraq a stamp that it is a nation once again.  We need to live with our actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cave, we did not just &#8220;allow them to run their affairs as much as we can.&#8221;  We literally turned over the government to them.  Yes, Iraq may not be as ready as they thought they are, but the fact remains that we have turned it over to them.  We are not running their government, but merely advising them on how things should be done.  We have minimal policy making authority or role, if any.  We may have turned over the sovereignty too soon, but turned over we did.  And we have been pushing other countries to give Iraq the recognizance for some time.  We also have been working behind the scenes at UN to get Iraq a stamp that it is a nation once again.  We need to live with our actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://ingodwetrustblog.com/world-affairs/sovereignty/comment-page-1/#comment-7116</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ingodwetrustblog.com/2008/07/08/sovereignty/#comment-7116</guid>
		<description>Wow, they aren&#039;t a sovereign nation? That means we are their rulers. If we ever announced that to the world there would be an unbelievable outcry and al-Sadr and others would take things to a level of violence we can&#039;t imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, they aren&#8217;t a sovereign nation? That means we are their rulers. If we ever announced that to the world there would be an unbelievable outcry and al-Sadr and others would take things to a level of violence we can&#8217;t imagine.</p>
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