1 February 2008
Continuing Our Discussion
Posted by Joy Bischoff under: Constitution in Peril; Judaeo-Christian Values Under Attack; Uncategorized .
This is a continuation of a discussion that has been going on regarding an earlier blog called: The Orcs are Coming. I want to thank everyone for your great comments and willingness to listen to my opinions. I have to say I am a little surprised that you are showing your ability to use reason over fear or hate. It gives me great hope for our country.
This discussion can help us better understand where we should be on the political spectrum as conservatives. Extremism is a real danger to maintaining our base. I am not saying we should be puppets on every issue. For example, I personally believe we should try and keep the environment clean but without going overboard like most environmentalist groups. They put humans far down the list in importance. Because I may differ a little on this issue, there are some Republicans who would kick me out of the conservative movement, believing we have to exactly parrot each other’s thoughts. So what we do is boil down the issues to basic principles of freedom that we can focus on. We identify political truths like the Founding Fathers did so we can understand why the Constitution is not obsolete. The liberals speak of the Constitution as a living, breathing document. I have read their books on this. What they mean is that in a modern society, an antiquated document no longer applies to our reality. They don’t understand that its principles are timeless. And they don’t understand that those principles are based on Judaeo-Christian values.
So far we have come up with good goals; to show the Constitution is not obsolete and why, to identify and learn the principles of freedom behind that document, spread the dialogue of freedom, and learn to identity and understand the dangers to that freedom.
Last of all, most of us here believe it is crucial for conservatives who want to preserve the Constitution and who believe it was divinely inspired, to put aside differences and focus on identifying points we can unify on. Without this unity there is not hope to preserve a conservative base intact. We are a small site and cannot do this alone but we can start the dialogue. Please join us and continue.
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35 Comments so far...
Jesse Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:20 am.
Phew thats easier not to have to scroll down all that way. I wanted to say something about Mac’s comment. The problem with what is relative and what is absolute is a great way to underscore a problem. Liberals and conservatives speak a different language. The introduction to this site says that we need to learn to get a long with liberals to. The problem is trying to speak the same language. Without communication nothing can get done and we see things so differently that it is hard. Roy wrote in his article about the constitution that when people don’t believe in life after death they will focus on doing everything they can to make this life safe. Taking people’s rights away from them to make them safe seems reasonable to someone who doesn’t believe in God. But for us we believe that we are here to follow the Lord. Free will is necessary to be able to do that. There is no personal growth where there is no freedom.
E.E. Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:23 am.
This is my last comment for now because I am late for an appointment. Jesse you make a great point. King George kept the colonists safe from invasion but not from himself. He kept taking away more and more of their rights until they decided freedom was more important than safety. When we focus so much on safety, even with this war (which I also want to win) then we take our eye off personal freedoms. In the long run what is most important?
Matt Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:26 am.
You interfered with my work yesterday and now it looks like you are trying to interfer even more. JK kind of. This is just such an important discussion that I hate to miss it but I am swamped today. I’ll check back later between meetings but for now I want to say that where this is going makes perfect sense to me. I think this kind of discussion is the only thing that can bridge the gap between republicans who want to win the war and those that think it was a farce to take away freedom. I’m sorry, I’m not really up on all the reasons why Ron Paul people are against the war but I thnk it is something like that.
Jesse Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:33 am.
Something like that Matt. I haven’t wanted to get into that on this site because I believe in this message of unity and I am afraid that if I shared all my views that I wouldn’t be welcome here. I know the moderators would be all right with me but probably not most of the rest of you.
Let me just say that there are a lot of us, almost half the country actually, that thinks there was something strange about 9/11. The thinking on exactly what happens differs widely but most of us think that what happened was used to create a climate of fear that enabled the power elite to take away some of our freedoms. I think everyone is aware by this time that many of our leaders are using the environment and other issues to make the point that we don’t deserve as many freedoms as we use to have. The Patriot Act, if you actually read it which I have, is a frightening document that takes away a lot of the rights we were given in the Constitution. We also don’t think Iraq was directly involved in 9/11. Afghanistan was one thing, Iraq was different. It is now a hotbed of terrorism but it wasn’t until we went there. The argument that Hussein was evil and had to be taken out doesn’t wash since there are lots of countries with evil dictators. Are we going into all of them? Enough of that. I understand that if you don’t agree with these thoughts, of course you would support the war. There is one way that I do think differently than many of the people supporting Ron Paul. I actually think Islamic terrorists are a real threat to America. Like Joy said, she studied this in college and knew Muslims and she knows they want to destroy the great Satan. Anyway, if we can get past an honest difference of opinionand stick with the Constitution and its importance, we can get something done.
Carrie Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:41 am.
This was great. Is someone going to write up what we talk about and get it organized? I need something that is right before my face to learn. I want to understand the thoughts behind the constitution. I am excited about this.
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:45 am.
The guy sitting in for Rush is saying there is a coup going on in the Republican party. It is being led by people in Bush’s administration. He said it isn’t Bush but people in their administration. They are going to rebrand the Republican party in the image of Al Gore. That is what is happening right now and conservatives are frustrated. People really are waking up. There is plenty of hope.
Pickles Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:58 am.
I’m listening to him too Cameron. His name is Jason Lewis. He talked about someone named Suny Perdue being the leader of the kew (sp?) He said they listen to the polls and change our partys positions according to there polls.
Personally I do believe in global warming but I believe the scientists who say it is a natural cycle and that it is also happening in the whole solar system.
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:00 pm.
Right Pickles. I’m not sure about global warming myself but if there is any then it is a cycle for sure. What is bad is that the liberals use it like a hammer to take away our freedoms. They act like the little people caused it and that we have forfeited our freedoms because of that. We didn’t set the regulations and build the factories that polluted. I don’t believe their figures on emissions.
Mac Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:22 pm.
I’m a little shocked right now. Did Jason Lewis read this blog? I’m glad you can see what time we wrote this stuff or people would think it was stolen from him. He is saying the same thing Joy was telling us this morning. He said the war is not enough, we have to educate the public. I jotted some of it down because I thought it was important. He continued to say being tough on terror is not enough. He said it is important (glad he said that) and that our freedom can be taken away by terrorists but usually freedom is taken away by government. He said that a lot of people say that the issue of our time is terrorism. He disagreed. He said the defining issue of all time is freedom. I guess you guys nailed it and I was wrong. I see that now and I am glad to have found this place.
Joy are you going to write up what we talk about like Carrie suggested? If we need to educate the pubic like Jason Lewis said then first we need to educate ourselves.
Carrie Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:23 pm.
Once we are educated then what do we do?
Joy Bischoff Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:27 pm.
Jefferson had it right. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. It takes effort to protect freedom, to understand it, to start a diaglogue and keep it going about what it takes to be free, and underscore the dangers. Vigilance.
And as far as writing it up, Roy is working on an article to explain how to really understand the political spectrum. Later I will write up these things we’ve discussed and post it.
Peter Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:29 pm.
I’ve been reading all this and I agree with some of it. What worries me is that if you talk about underscoring the dangers, talking about the things that put our freedom in danger, you are going to open the door wide for all the conspiracy theories that turn people crazy.
Joy Bischoff Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:35 pm.
Peter, you seem very afraid of the word, conspiracy. I think that is sad because it shows that political correctness has corralled you right where they want you. Read what Roy wrote about labels. I have been a student of history all my life and anyone who studies history can tell you that there have been conspiracies since the beginning of time. If there are people who do not want you to know about their conspiracies, what would they do? Make it seem so fanatical to even use the word that no one will touch it. It takes courage to go against the tide. I do not believe half what I hear out there, but does that mean I throw it all out? Does that mean that I think that in this time of technology that would make it very easy for quiet communication, that somehow people have become so perfect no one would be so under-handed to ever conspire to bring about their own agenda? Break it down to logic and refuse to be corralled. Don’t use the tools of liberals to willfully blind yourself.
Also, I keep saying that we aren’t going to promote as a site, specifics that will divide us as conservatives. People are welcome to respectfully discuss these things but we need to focus on basic principles. We arm ourselves with knowledge so we can take on the Orcs together. We don’t fight among ourselves and give them the opening they need to ruin our party. Let other groups work to expose the Bilderbergers, that’s great. We want to focus on the broader goals of stopping the fracturing of Republicans.
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:37 pm.
Well said, Joy. I couldn’t agree more.
Peter Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:38 pm.
All right I see where you are coming from. It is a little hard to change my thinking and I can’t promise how far I can go but I do believe in the basics of what you are trying to do. I just don’t want anyone to ruin it and drive people away.
Joy Bischoff Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:40 pm.
Some people will be driven away. I have learned to care very little what people think of me or my opinions. There is something much more important going on right now than worrying about opinions. It is time to step up and do what we can to solve the problems we face.
The Realist Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:41 pm.
I stil think everyone is going a little overboard. Like I wrote before, this stuff has happened before and it will happen again.
Joy Bischoff Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:44 pm.
Peter, I read that comment and was hoping someone else would comment on it. I try to stand back a little normally. But this is so important I need to comment. I strongly disagree. This has never happened before because socialism has been slowly marching forward through the years. It has been taking bites out of our freedom and those bites aren’t coming back without a huge effort. First people have to wake up and I think that finally many people are. We are poised on a cliff and our Constitution is honestly in danger. For the first time in the history of our nation, the socialist agenda has come out of the closet. They are taking liberties right out in the open to grab the rest of our freedoms. We are in danger. This is more serious than most people believe, IMO.
Carrie Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:45 pm.
I started to listen to Jason Lewis too. It is kind of strange that he is saying the same kinds of things that we are writing about here. It feels good to know he and most of the callers agree with us.
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 12:50 pm.
One more thing Peter. Don’t mean to be ganging up on you but just want to share info. You made a comment yesterday about not believing all the reporters in the country were ganging up on Mitt. The truth is, the people who own the major press corporations keep a very firm hand on what goes out. Their managers know their policies and when they send down word to show bias against someone who is considered dangerous to the liberal agenda, they do it. If they are told to support someone they do it. I’ve seen local news stations that were positive about Mitt turn negative at the exact same time others did and use the same lines. I’m not a conspiracy theorist but I’m not blind either.
Irritated Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:03 pm.
Pipe dream. You will never get the Ron Paul crazies to work with the regular republicans and you will never get the evangelicals to stop hating the Mormons enough to work together. Won’t happen.
Joy Bischoff Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:32 pm.
Peter, I used your name when I meant The Realist. Sorry, I’m tired.
Jan W. Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:37 pm.
Irritated – you irritate me. I am an evangelical and I know that the people who run this site are Mormon. I know Mitt is a Mormon. We don’t hate the Mormon Church more than we love our country.
E.E. Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:42 pm.
I was listening to Jason Lewis on the way back from the doctor. He said that liberals will always choose their own and reject conservatives that move left if there is a choice. It reminds me of some robbers who were trying to take over a government and they wrote a letter to the leader and said if you join with us you can share in the government and all our riches. The leader of that free government wasn’t an idiot. He knew they had no right to the government and he knew they wouldn’t really share equally. They would put themselves first.
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:48 pm.
I liked the part where he said there is no virtue in beng compassionate with other people’s money. He also said that the natural inclination for someone who gets in office is to move left. Imagine McCain moving left. He could easily pass up Hillary.
Jan, don’t worry about irritated. He is a troll. We can work together. Just remember George Washington. The reason he was such a perfect first president is that he was brilliant at looking past the little things. Only he could hold together the separate states who wanted to be independent. Only he could have a representative of both factions as his two closest counselors, Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. Only he could have overlooked his idiot generals under him who wanted power and tried to destroy him. He was patient and we can be patient. Together we can all be George Washington and try to pull together our base. I’m not a Mormon but I know they are very patriotic people. We need them and they need us. I’m glad you’re here.
Jan W. Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:54 pm.
Thank you Cameron. I would be a lot more scared right now about things if it wasn’t for this place and people like you.
Stumpy Says:
1 February 2008 at 1:57 pm.
My work here is done.
Matt Says:
1 February 2008 at 2:25 pm.
I don’t know what to add. This was incredible. Cameron do you ever work?
Cameron Says:
1 February 2008 at 2:29 pm.
I work for myself so I will punish myself by working late today.
Stumpy you are absolutely nuts but we’ll keep you.
Sharon Anderson Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:13 pm.
Hey Stumpy, I hope that doesn’t mean you are leaving us. You would be missed.
Well, I met my Feb. 1st deadline and now I have time to make a short comment. My daughter recently heard an excellent teacher of history make the point that freedom is not universally valued. At first I was surprised, but when we look at what is happening in our country it becomes evident. It seems many would like to trade their freedom for “security” and let the government “take care of them.” Also there are many cultures that don’t seem to value freedom (Perhaps because the possibility of actually having freedom is so remote that it is not even on their “radar screen.”)
Anyway I think that one of the first things those of us who read and comment on this site can agree on is that as a group we value freedom.
Secondly, I think we can agree that the founding fathers were right when they said that governments are instituted to secure these rights.
Now here is another point that I would put third, (but I don’t know if all will agree): While our government, if it follows the pattern set up by the Consitution, will safeguard our freedom, if the citizens of our country do not remain committed being a moral, decent, and virtuous people we will lose those freedoms. I would define being a moral as loving God and others, following the golden rule and the ten commandments and of course one religion has the corner on these qualities.
Fourth, could we all agree that their are those who would like to take away our freedom in order to get power and gain and that those who value freedom must be vigilant or we will loose our freedoms?
Well that’s my two cents worth for tonight. Its late and it has been a long day so I am done for now. I have enjoyed everyone’s comments.
Matt Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:16 pm.
Incredible comments tonight. Looks like you’ve thought a lot about this Sharon.
Cavetrollhead Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:32 pm.
Jan – you make me want to cheer. I know most Evangelicals are like you. I didn’t believe it a couple of months ago, until I saw the exit polls and realized how many evangelicals are open to Mitt Romney. Way to go! I am not saying that Evangelicals have to support Romney to be open minded, but when they do, I think it is proof.
Cavetrollhead Says:
1 February 2008 at 11:36 pm.
I want to say one more simple thing if it hasn’t been said. There is no possibility of absolute freedom in our society any more than there is such thing as absolute security. Let us not be so idealistic as to think there is. (I am thinking of the Patriot Act and the war, martial law, etc- the founding fathers knew this too)
Sharon Anderson Says:
2 February 2008 at 9:16 am.
What I meant to say was “but of course NO one religion has a corner on these qualities.” (And I thought I had adequately proofed what I wrote, but like I said it was late.) So now let me elaborate a bit. There are people of all faiths who are God respecting (some would call it God fearing and that term works if you understand that fearing can mean possessing “reverential awe”). Anyway, there are those who do not believe in the Bible yet still are moral, value freedom, love their fellow men, and reverence (their) god.
I think love of fellow men is key. We have to like/love and respect ourselves in order to love others. Its difficult to have self respect if we are not square with God. We don’t have to be perfect but if we are trying to do what we feel is right, it makes it easier to like ourselves and love others. When we love others then we won’t want to lie, cheat, steal, or do anything that will take away their freedom. We will use the freedom we have responsibly.
And yes, Cave…head, the founding fathers had a huge challenge striking a balance that would give us enough government to guard our freedom and not so much that it would take it away.
So that brings up another point — maybe a fifth point of agreement. The bigger the government, the less freedom we have. Why? One reason is because it takes alot more money to run big government and that means more taxation ie. taking away the means, money, labor of the tax payers (usually without their consent) so they do not have life, liberty and are unable to pursue happiness as they choose.
Wow this is getting long. I guess I’ll be quiet now and let someone else have a turn.
Joy Bischoff Says:
2 February 2008 at 9:35 am.
Great points everyone. Sharon what you said about tax payers reminds me of something I heard yesterday. There is all this talk by liberals about compassion and they say Republicans are not compassionate, but it is not compassion when the government is giving away money that is not theirs. That if forced compassion which is not compassion at all. If we had more of our tax dollars, we could give any more and don’t let anyone tell you we are selfish and wouldn’t do that. There is constant evidence that we are the most giving, caring nation in the world.
The point about love is crucial. Getting caught up in a wave of emotion that polarizes is what we warn about here. That engenders hatred and the only antidote for that is love. We are being tested about loving our enemy. I am working on loving John McCain more.
And Cavetrollhead, I join you in cheering Jan. She has shown she can love Mormons even if she doesn’t agree with us. Now that is Christian.
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