16 February 2008
McCain Supporters Welcome
Posted by Joy Bischoff under: Constitution in Peril; Judaeo-Christian Values Under Attack; Presidential Election 2008 .
This is where the rubber hits the road. If we are going to move forward in our goal to assist in the huge and difficult job of uniting conservatives, we are going to have to learn to open our hearts and minds to everyone who wants to preserve the Constitution.
Are there any Ron Paul supporters, as loathsome as some of you think they are, who love the Constitution? That answer should be very obvious if you know anything about their positions. How about someone who is planning on voting for Obama? Rorin explained his reasoning very well on that stance and I for one, respect and support his decision although I have my own feelings on it. Is it possible for a John McCain supporter to plan on voting for a moderate who has always disdained his own party, and still want to preserve the freedoms enshrined in the Constitution? ABSOLUTELY!
If we are so judgmental towards others that we don’t allow them their personal choice of voting, without condemning them as a traitor to the cause, then we have failed. We have discussed at length how important it is to break politics down to the core principles to find common points of agreement in order to work together to preserve the foundation of the Constitution. Most of us have agreed to take the huge leap to set aside differences over the war, 9/11, and even whether or not there is a threat of Globalism. We have done this because in the long run, we all see what is crucial and without finding enough unity which is the key for our success, the conservative gatekeepers of freedom will fail.
This brings us to our current and most dangerous crisis. We are only at the beginning of what will probably be a widening gap of those who will support Senator McCain and those who believe this is traitorous to the Republican Party. If we cannot find a way to bridge this gap and work together in spite of this issue, we will in effect have been split into two parties, two separate camps under one banner. We must reach across that gap here at In God We Trust and hold on to each other to keep it from widening further. Sure there will be frustrations and differences but it is not betrayal. There is reasoning on both sides. Do not attack the other side with emotionalism and harsh words. Strong words are different from harsh ones, logic is different than vitriol. I would like to offer a historical precedent for each position.
First, for those who support John McCain but still understand that he represents the Establishment, the Book of Daniel has been discussed a little on our site. We could easily assume that Daniel and his brethren who worked for the king were resented by many of their fellow Israelites. Although they did not ask to join the royal system, they did their very best to help and support the king. This was a king who saw himself as the leader of the civilized world. Daniel had drawn a line for himself and even the threat of death would not make him cross that line. He faced death rather than betray God. It seems clear that those here who have leaned toward voting for McCain plan on keeping his feet to the fire. If they stick to that and seriously get involved in making their voice heard, then they can do some good. Those outside the McCain camp may resent them but look at the good Daniel did. It was because of him that Israel was allowed eventually, to return to their own land.
For those who believe it best to say in mass to the establishment, “we refuse to have your choice shoved down our throat, don’t do it again,” here is a thought for you. People will say you are betraying your party. They will tell you that you must pick the lesser of two evils or you will personally be responsible for seating a president who will harm our country more than the other would have. Here is how I feel about that. When Joseph Smith was struggling with which presidential candidate to support, he came to the decision that both would be a disaster for the country. He could not bring himself to choose the lesser of two evils. He decided instead to run for president. He was well aware that he stood no chance for victory since anti-Mormonism was rampant. The reason he ran was two-fold. First, since he didn’t agree with picking the lesser of two evils, he wanted to offer a choice that was not evil. He did not see it as wasting a vote because he understood our vote is our sustaining voice, in effect, and we become partially responsible for what that mandate accomplishes if we knew when we voted that person lacked integrity. Second, Joseph Smith saw this as an opportunity to spread his own political ideas and add to public debate, hoping to open eyes to true political principles. It was this candidacy that so outraged his enemies that they decided once and for all to stop him. This they did, in cold blood. So I do not buy it when someone tells me I have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Joseph didn’t. If offered a choice between Stalin and Hitler, I would write in a different name.
At this point, I could write a book about why I would not vote for John McCain, but I was only trying here to show a reason for both sides to take the stand they do without the other side throwing dirt. It is very quiet around here today. I believe there is a lot of introspection taking place along with some burn out. This could stop our goals in their tracks. It is up to you. Do we stop paddling? Can we stay in the same boat with McCain supporters or do we have to have different boats and row in different directions? And what about Ron Paul, Barak Obama supporters, or any other option; you tell me.
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37 Comments so far...
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 2:18 pm.
Ill be good. Ill go write it a hunderd times right now.
E.E. Says:
16 February 2008 at 2:37 pm.
I can get on board with this. We did jump pretty hard on Realist and Chuck. I feel bad about that. We need everybody to help here and don’t want to drive away anyone.
The Realist Says:
16 February 2008 at 3:23 pm.
If others around here will have the same attitude then maybe I’ll hang around here. We’ll see.
McCain Supporters Welcome Says:
16 February 2008 at 3:30 pm.
[...] Political Kudzu wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptMcCain Supporters Welcome Posted by Joy Bischoff under: Constitution in Peril; Judaeo-Christian Values Under Attack; Presidential Election 2008. This is where the rubber hits the road. If we are going to move forward in our goal to assist in the huge and difficult job of uniting conservatives, we are going to have to learn to open our hearts and minds to everyone who wants to preserve the Constitution. Are there any Ron Paul supporters, as loathsome as some of you think they are, who love the [...]
Anon88 Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:01 pm.
I feel it is important not to underestimate the intelligence of the liberal machine. Since it is backed and largely guided by Academia, it would be naive to assume things happen randomly. I know from first hand experience that they want to break up the conservative movement to neutralize its ability to resist socialism. It is brilliant to split the party over an unacceptable candidate. They knew full well that many would fall in line in order to save the party and the war. I don’t know why people fall for the war issue since there is no way Hillary would pull us out. Her inner circle would never let her. But Obama would try, thought I doubt he would succeed. The liberals also knew that many would not fall for their ploy and would oppose McCain. They are happy either way because it splits the party. Even if they fail and the large majority of Republicans rally behind McCain, it works for them because ultimately, if they can’t defeat the conservatives, they are happy to have them join ranks under the title of moderate. As Roy pointed out in his article on the political spectrum, this is just an illusion.
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:10 pm.
So what do we do teacher?
Anon88 Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:30 pm.
I don’t want to tell anybody what to do, Stumpy. It is something we all have to decide for ourselves. Whatever you decide, the important thing is to not sit by quietly doing nothing. We need a whole country full of activists at this point. We need to be loud but NOT obnoxious. The works against us. And we need to stay informed. I was interested in the discussion about Russia earlier this week. Do your homework and don’t be fooled. Isn’t it interesting that Sandor Laborc, the new chairman of a NATO Intelligence committee was trained for six years in the KGB Academy? Did you know that NATO was formed in 1949 specifically to fight Soviet expansion? So keep sifting fact from fiction. We could get completely bogged down in conspiracy theories if we let ourselves but don’t let the fear of that label blind us to what is really going on out there.
Back to the question. Personally, I have decided to make my voice heard to the Republican Establishment. They handed me a candidate that I can’t support. I will write in Romney but that is just me. Do what seems best to you.
E.E. Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:52 pm.
Realist, glad you are giving us another chance. I know I won’t agree with everything you say but I’m sure there are lots of things we can agree on.
E.E. Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:53 pm.
Anon88, I had forgotten that about NATO. This whole scenario reminds me of the book 1984.
Chuck C Says:
16 February 2008 at 4:53 pm.
Well friends, I love to argue a point from both sides to see how they both fit. I learned long ago that I do not have all of the answers. It seems I stirred up a little resentment by my seeming flip flop on McCain.
I don’t see John (follow me Grunts) McCain flip flopping on who he is. I do not believe he has it within him to represent my my value systems. Regarding the political spectrum circle written about by Roy, I shared that concept with Joy and him in a private email prior to his writing the article.
No matter if the President of the United States is a Democrat or a Republican, he will be my president. I’ll tell you one thing I really do hate… every time a president makes a speech, the opposition party televises their response. The response is always negative. I hate that! There should be some issues we agree upon.
Now, about McCain and Obama. Obama has voted to weaken our intelligence capabilities and that REALLY scares me. McCain, to his credit did not (telephone company liability).
Obama would not come close to representing my values in selecting Supreme or Federal Court Judges. And that scares me. Untold numbers of unborn children will have less of a chance to live if Obama packs the court his way. If ever there was a single issue that I hang my entire political belief structure upon, it is abortion and the sanctity of life.
Yesterday as I was driving to an out of town soccer tournament, I lectured to myself about even considering voting for McCain if he would change and represent my value systems. I told myself that I live in a democratic where many issues are debated and voted upon. If, whenever my point lost, I declined to support the majority, what kind of citizen would I be? How would I feel if my opponents declined to support democratically founded legislation just because they didn’t get their way?
Then I told myself that I have to be a patriot and stick up for important principals and values. I will do that. I will do all I can to paddle a boat on the right side of the island. I believe McCain will continue down the left side.
In the mean time, I feel very negative about our choices for president, so I must get involved more fully in state and local politics. All politics is local, so I have to do more than just write on a blog. We HAVE to elect congressmen and senators who will represent our values. Then, in the end, we will not have lost. Let’s not consider it a slam dunk that the dems will win the majority of both houses. This is the only place I see that we can make a difference.
I have not been offended by anyone more than myself. I wish this whole thing was easier.
M.G. Says:
16 February 2008 at 5:27 pm.
At first I was excited about this site because I thought I had found people who thought exactly the same as me. I wanted this place to be dedicated to stopping McCain. Now I can see you are trying to accomplish a greater good. It is harder to love and focus on positive solutions than it is to hate and pull down. I agree with Chuck about televised responses by the opposition to speeches. When everyone around us is being so negative it is so hard to swim against that. But I will try because it seems obvious that what you are trying to do is far more important.
Jan W. Says:
16 February 2008 at 5:40 pm.
Realist, you have to stick around here so we have a McCain supporter to practise being nice to. Chuc, whatever you decide we are behind you. It is obvious you have a good heart and really try and do what is right.
Jan W. Says:
16 February 2008 at 5:41 pm.
oops I forgot my k
Matt Says:
16 February 2008 at 5:49 pm.
I don’t just blog here, I do things. I get involved in both local and national politics. Being a part of this blog is an important part of what I do because I am trying to help build a consensus. It is how we spread the message and teach about the constitution and that is also important.
Chuck, you have written some good things here but I have to say that I firmly believe there are a few principles that we should study and learn if they are true. If they come from the Lord and the founding fathers put them in the constitution, then we shouldn’t be wishy washy about them. We know we don’t have all the answers but when we identify eternal truth then we should be firm in saying we have some of the answers. It isn’t pride or thinking we are smarter than the next guy. It is having confidence in proven values. If you meant you don’t have all the answers about who to vote for then that is different. It is a hard thing like you said. I for one will not judge you whatever you decide. And it is great that you taught Joy and Roy about the political spectrum. That is very valuable information so thanks.
Anon88 Says:
16 February 2008 at 5:55 pm.
It’s one thing to say we will accept other opinions but when everyone jumps in to castigate the guy when he is ruminating, it is the same as saying that he must agree or be ostracized. Maybe in the future if something goes through some personal evaluation like Chuck did, or even change his mind like the Realist apparently did, perhaps if just a couple of people would give their opinion and not the whole gang. Just a thought.
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:00 pm.
okee dokee teacher. I gotta get me a nap this has been exhausting.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:13 pm.
Great suggestion, Anon88, thank you.
Before someone can make a decision they should look at every angle. We have tried to do that here but I am sure there are many things we haven’t covered. We should never be afraid of evaluation.
As far as the political spectrum goes, Roy and I learned about it ten years ago from Oliver DeMille. Chuck is correct that he brought it up to me a few weeks ago. It gave me chills because as I told him, I had been thinking about it a half before that. I thought it would be too complicated to share here but since we both thought of it within the almost exact same timeframe, I figured Chuck had been inspired to bring it up so I mentioned it to Roy who liked the idea and went with it. So it is definitely here due to Chuck’s inspiration. I believe in that sort of thing. He is a valuable addition to our family here. He would be a valuable addition to any family 
.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:16 pm.
Oh yeah, and as far as getting involved Matt. you are right, this blog serves a very important purpose. A couple of hours ago I posted info about an important bill and asked everyone here to let their senators know how they feel. That is taking action.
Chuck C Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:38 pm.
I need some help in evaluating this difficult decision. I have shared many of my feelings, and you know I will not fall in or out of line like a lamb. Maybe it is time to have the resolve of a Gandhi, I don’t know. He LIVED his values and principals, no matter what. I think Joy is much like him.
Now, for the help I need. Someone, please list the reasons why any thinking conservative must not vote for McCain. Then list why (for each of the reasons you list) it would be better or worse for Obama or Clinton to be president in regards to each issue listed. Then, for each issue listed, what is the best thing that I (we) can do to work toward the desired solution for each issue to compensate for whoever is selected.
I do not suggest we get in line with the powers that be, or be driven by the media. (What is the real reason(s) Romney is backing John follow me Grunts McCain?)
We have about eight months to move this elephant where it needs to be. Capitulation is not the answer. Action is. But in the end, I would be happy to win most of my battles, if my principals are not compromised.
I have more questions than answers. I look forward to hearing from all of you with the answers.
Hank Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:40 pm.
The most important thing this place does for me is it shows me how much the liberals want to fracture our party and that makes me tell my friends and family. Now they know not to give in to being turned against our own party by outsiders. Next is all I am learning about the Constitution and how everything fits together. Without this education we can’t hold onto it. Like Joy wrote yesterday, we all have to be leaders and spread the word and help people be strong. I never thought of myself getting involved like this cause I’m just an old blue collar working man. But my family listens to me and so do my drinking buddies. Maybe my circle is kind of small but it all helps right?
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:50 pm.
I was just taking a last glance here before finally starting on my lesson for tomorrow. Monday I will blog on my reasons for not supporting McCain but the rest of you can jump in with your thoughts. And be nice.
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 6:58 pm.
Cause he is a butthead. Case closed.
Terrie Soberg Says:
16 February 2008 at 7:14 pm.
Chuck C., excellent question. We really need to get this straight in our own heads so that we can help others. Give me a chance to put my thoughts together before I post them.
Romneyite Says:
16 February 2008 at 7:18 pm.
I cannot do that. It is too big a pill to swallow. I will not support just to keep the conservative base together. Together with what? The Establishment Conservatives? Those are the conservatives that you cannot tell the difference between them and Liberals.
I just cannot vote for a Liberal under any circumstance and to me McCain is the next best (or in this case, worst) thing to a liberal.
I am not sitting this vote out because we can always vote for Representatives and Senators that support our values.
This is the direction that the GOP seems to be going. I voted for Bush but Bush turned out to be a big spending, big government liberal who gave us a tax cut. Now they are pushing McCain on us.
After Romney suspended his campaign I submitted a new voter registration card. I am no longer a Republican, I am now an independant but I am still and always will be a Conservative.
Iffer Says:
16 February 2008 at 7:22 pm.
In the future when something terrible goes wrong because of the Presidents wrong headed thinking, i don’t want to blame myself for voting them into office, which is why i’m not going to vote for McCain, or Hillary or Barak. I am going to write in Mitt Romney, because i know that if he was still running he could straiten things out better than any of the others. He represents MY values, the others do not.
Stumpy, you are a bad boy, maybe you should write a hundred more sentences
E.E. Says:
16 February 2008 at 7:32 pm.
Romneyite,
Sometimes we forget to be more inclusive. There are more than just republicans here. In fact I know some people from a couple of other parties that come here to read so we need to think of them too. We should use the word conservative more than republican. I am out the door to a reception but hopefully tomorrow I can share some of my thoughts but they will probably sound old because we have talked about it so much here already in great depth. Anyway, this is by far the most action this place has seen on a Saturday. There probably won’t be too many around on a Saturday night. I hope this is still up on the site Monday when more people are around because it is important. Night all.
Ghost Says:
16 February 2008 at 8:08 pm.
There is probably no one around right now to read this since you are all having fun on a Saturday night but with a fussy baby we don’t get out much. E.E. is right. There is a ton of info on this subject in the back blogs. Maybe the moderators could pull out some of the best and re-post them. It is too big of a job for one person to do. If we all put down every reason, no one would want to read such ridiculously long lists. Personally I just think whoever wants should take a specific subject or two or three and write about that. We can just read each others so we don’t copy, or heck, more than one person can write on it. All those who support backing McCain should speak up too.
Tonight I am just going to share the most important reason I can’t vote for McCain. I hope those of you who aren’t Mormons won’t mind this one time just speaking to Mormons. You can all listen in but it might not make sense. I have studied long and hard on this subject and I know that John McCain is no different from the Gadianton Robbers in the Book of Mormon. I would not in good conscience vote for one of them for office and I cannot vote for McCain. We were told in the last days to “awake to our awful situation”. I’m awake and I will raise the banner of truth every chance I get.
In Helaman chapter six, we read that the Lamanites chased the Gadianton Robbers out of their land but the Nephites supported them. They were tolerant and for the sake of peace they let them gain ground. The Gadianton robbers seduced the more righteous part of the Nephites until they joined with them. I won’t join with McCain no matter how hard he and the establishment seduces or coerces me. Their reasoning would naturally be cunning and sound knowledgeable.
Verse 39: And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government, insomuch that they did trample under their feet and smite and rend and turn their backs upon the poor and the meek, and the humble followers of God.
The Establishment is in control like the circle with clasped hands Roy showed and you believe, Chuck. No matter which of their three candidates get in, it is the establishment that will pull the strings so my vote goes to one of two things. Do I vote for a Gadianton Robber or write in a name of a freeman?
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 8:43 pm.
My place got robbed and I been looking fer the culprit for weeks. Should a known he was in cahoots with McCain. Hey Ghosty I need his full name to give them cops. Is Gadianton the first name or the las name of this snake?
Sharon Anderson Says:
16 February 2008 at 8:47 pm.
Have you ever heard about the little old lady who was half deaf and half blind? When asked why she went to church when she couldn’t hear or see, she said, “I go to show which side I am on.”
When we go into the voting booth, we have a chance to show which side we are on–even though God is the only other one who knows what we choose, even though our choice may not make a difference in the outcome. It makes a difference to us and to Him. Somehow this makes our vote seem sacred. That is why it is important to think these things through and work them out in our minds and hearts.
And Chuck, remember those 10 points you wrote up? Maybe they can be the beginning of a list of why not to vote for McCain since those seem to be important areas where you have concerns about what he has done in the past or what he will do in the future.
CindyL. Says:
16 February 2008 at 9:39 pm.
I was talking to my roommates about this. None of us wanted to go to the dance tonight so instead we pulled out a great book by Pat Buchanan called The Death of the West. He quotes an ex-communist who says:
I do not know what the cause is of the West’s extraordinarily rapid decline, which is m ost profoundly shown by the deepening loss, among the leaders of the West, of confidence in themselves and in the unique quality of their own civilization, and by a correlated weakness of the Western will to survive. The cause or causes have something to do, I think, with the decay of religion and with an excess of material luxury; and I suppose with getting tired, worn out, as all things temporal do.”
This reminds me of what one of my professors said. Hugh Nibley wrote that righteous cultures decline because the people get tired of all the work it takes to remain free. And I think that right now, with all the defeats we have just had, that conservatives are getting tired. Really really tired. Now is when we need leaders to stand up and give courage to others to stand up and be counted. If we vote for McCain we will not be counted for standing up. They will not know it is a protest vote against the other candidate. They will think we caved in and that they have a mandate for the brand spanking new republican party.
Buchanan wrote about the above quote:
This struggle to preserve the old creeds, cultures, and countries of the West is the new divide between Left and Right; this struggle will define what it means to be a conservative. This is the cause of the twenty-first century and the agenda of conservatism for the remainder of our lives.
He goes on to say:
And the great battles will not be political, but moral, intellectual, and spiritual. For the adversary is not another party, but another faith, another way of seeing God and man. And the outcome will be less often decided in Congress than in the schools, the media, and the high court. For the prize contested is the souls of the young. “We’ll get you through your children,” boated poet Allen Ginsberg in unconscious echo of that other culture revolutionary, Adolf Hitler: If they do not go with us, it does not matter. We already have their children.
We have to preserve conservatism for our children. We can’t sell out the greatest good for a great good. They are more patient than we are. We look at the crisis right now and they look at what it takes to destroy conservatism in the long run.
So the point is, McCain has already made it clear that he hates the religious right. He came out openly about that in 2000. Has he changed? No. Is it incredibly bad that Obama would put in bad judges? Totally. But I think it is worse to destroy the only force in the country that keeps God at their center. A great book I love says that if we don’t keep Him there, then this nation will not stay free. Then the real bad guy has his plan in place and our hands are tied. Like Sharon said, God will know how we vote and if that vote reflects keeping God in our hearts.
CindyL. Says:
16 February 2008 at 9:40 pm.
Sorry, didn’t mean to write a book. I’m used to writing reports for my classes and get carried away.
Hank Says:
16 February 2008 at 9:55 pm.
Here’s the deal folks. Even if McCain got in, which I don’t think the MSM will let him do, I’m not sure he would pick conservative enough judges. We all know now what he did in Wisconsin. The man is lip service pro life. Do you really think he wont poke us in the eye…again?
Peter Says:
16 February 2008 at 10:00 pm.
You are all going to make yourselves look so unreasonable that the left will hate religious people even more. Open warfare in the Republican party and then open warfare with the libs, is that what you want? I don’t think you are up to it. I know I’m not and people like me will be sitting smack dab in the firing range.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 February 2008 at 10:04 pm.
As Chuck reminded me awhile back, we aren’t sunshine soldiers, Peter. We didn’t fire the first or the second shot and we are only defending our territory in defense of our homes and our families future welfare.
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 10:14 pm.
When the MSM starts raining there crap down on our heads all these folks who aint sure where they stand now are gonna throw down there weapons and run away just like our deer ole Peter. (I did not neither spell it wrong. Deer in the headlights stupid)
Stumpy Says:
16 February 2008 at 10:15 pm.
Get us a new blasted thread kids. My finger hurts from scrollin.
Terrie Soberg Says:
16 February 2008 at 10:18 pm.
If anyone else wants to continue the discussion tonight, why don’t you do it on the Glenn Beck video.
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