16 April 2008
Shame on Texas
Posted by Joy Bischoff under: Constitution in Peril; What's News .
I have wanted to stay a little distant from this situation in Texas for a few reasons, the most important being that many people mistakenly think these polygamists are Mormon. They are no more Mormon than Baptists are Catholics. They broke away from our church in the late 1800s.
No longer will I be silent as I watch the Constitutional rights of these women being trampled. There is outrage because of these girls being married off young. People say this is abuse. I agree they should wait until they are eighteen and should only marry by consent. But what the government is doing by taking the children from these mothers is far worse abuse than any they have already suffered. If they are victims, how does putting their children in foster homes or adopting them out help these victimized women? It is horrifying, it is senseless and I am outraged and disgusted.
I am also unhappy that my church is being slandered yet once again by the press who would love for people to equate this religion with Mormons. The caption with the photo at the bottom identified this woman as a Mormon. She is not, she is FLDS.
How can a report of abuse of a sixteen-year-old be justification for this? These other women haven’t abused anyone. The man who was accused of the abuse was released after being interviewed because he wasn’t in Texas when the alleged abuse took place.
Inside the polygamist ‘underage sex cult’: Pictures show the grief of mothers who had their children taken away
Sobbing mothers from the polygamist sect at the centre of child abuse allegations said today that their children had now been taken away from them.
Most of the 416 children rescued after a raid on April 3 were taken away from their mothers yesterday.
Out of 139 mothers who left the secretive Texas ranch after the raid, only those with children aged four or younger have been allowed to stay with them, social services said.
Texas authorities accuse the renegade Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption.
The women were given the choice of returning to the sect’s Yearning for Zion ranch or going to another safe location.
About 36 sobbing women - many of them mothers - at the ranch in Eldorado last night said police officers had encircled them and told them that they could not stay.
One said the women had not even been allowed to say goodbye to their crying children.
“They said, ‘Your children are ours,”‘ said the 32-year-old, who had been separated from her three sons, aged nine, seven and five. “We could not even ask a question.”
The raid followed a call to a domestic violence hot line from a 16-year-old girl who said she was beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.
But the women say the caller was just a vindictive outsider.
Bereft: Mormon mother Marie, 32, sobs after being separated from her three sons, aged between five and nine. ‘They are being abused from this experience,’ she said
44 Comments so far...
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:56 am.
I’ll be the first to comment on my own blog. I didn’t want to make it any longer but I did want to share that I saw a news report earlier where an official from Texas said the children in the shelter were happy and doing wonderfully. That is bullcrap. Young children taken from their mothers and the only life they have known are not happy. We were also told last week that the mothers were all doing well and now we know that was a lie. Is this America?
Benjamin Says:
16 April 2008 at 9:40 am.
I’ve been wishing I would see something about this situation on the blog. I know it a touchy thing for us LDS because of people mixing us up but it is too terrible not to address. Any abuse should be stopped but this is out of hand. I totally agree with the point that if people think these women are being abused by their lifestyle, how could the state abuse them more by stealing their children away? It makes no sense. This could set a very dangerous precedent. It could lead to all kinds of constitutional abuses.
Sharon Anderson Says:
16 April 2008 at 10:25 am.
This is an outrage. The state, claiming to protect the vulnerable, destroys their security and tears mothers and children apart. So who is guilty of abuse here?
Some argue that these people broke the law, and deserve what is happening, but there are far more serious and dangerous offences occuring in Texas and elsewhere while the authorities look the other way.
What is happening reminds me of Step 6 on the road to fascism, “Engage in arbitrary detention and release.” All ten steps are outlined by Naomi Wolf in “Fascist America, in 10 easy steps.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
“From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms.” Wolf argues that the current administration seems to be taking them all.
T. Fan Says:
16 April 2008 at 10:32 am.
Sharon, thank you (in a way) for sharing that link. I hadn’t seen that before and it was pretty shocking, disturbing information.
I won’t pretend polygamy doesn’t bother me but these women shouldn’t lose their children over it. I have read a few articles on it and only once did I see anything about the man being interviewed and released because wasn’t in Texas. That pertinent piece of information is purposefully being left out so public opinion will stay with the government. This is very wrong.
One last thing, I feel bad for you Mormons for being identified with this group. Sadly a lot of people will equate the two. I see a lot of misinformation out there about you guys. Hang in there.
Pickles Says:
16 April 2008 at 11:23 am.
I feel so sorry for those kids living like that. I don’t like the idea of polygamy at all. It’s the 21st Century.
E.E. Says:
16 April 2008 at 11:51 am.
Pickles, I do not want to condone polygamy because it is against the law of the land. But I feel more sorry for kids being raised in homes where their mothers have a bunch of kids from different fathers who are never a part of their lives and they are given a sense of entitlement that the government owes them a good lifestyle. Those kids should be taken away before these 400 children who at least are loved and learn to work.
Nalvy Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:02 pm.
Joy I want to thank you for posting this Blog. I wanted someone to post something about it so I could voice my opinion.
I do not condone polygamy, but I do agree that what has happened is outrageous and the fact that we Mormons are being linked to Polygamists is absurd. It is all just a ploy to get people to think even worse about us so if and when we are attacked somehow it will be accepted by the majority. I am not trying to sound paranoid but I heard some Brilliant Genius say that the raid on their temple is paving the way for raids on our temples. Sadly I know that the possibility of this happening is true.
At the fair last week some lady was walking by the missionary booth and she said all disgusted, “Why don’t we ask THEM about that polygamist temple that just got raided.” and then she sneered at us and we were all looking at each other like “What just happened?”
It upset me that she could be so ignorant. Before I was Mormon I knew the difference between Mormons and Polygamists. I never confused the two and even corrected people when they said something contrary.
On another note I feel that separating those children from their mothers is ridiculous. They should not be forced to go through the emotional abuse they are going to be put through. I have the feeling life will be worse when they are released into our society.
Cavetrollhead Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:11 pm.
I know I have been quiet for a while but this is a story that I have to comment on. What an outrage! This is kidnapping! No trial- just immediate punishment under the pretense that they are helping those kids. They couldn’t have limited this abduction to post pubescent girls? What is the emergency here? I wonder how the kids made it so long without state intervention. No evidence is found for serious abuse or neglect, yet the parents are still without their children and bewildered children are without their ‘abusive’ parents- no doubt the state social workers are letting the kids know how “abused” they have been.
On the polygamy topic, it is so frustrating (as a Mormon) that these people are equated to Mormons. Mormons (properly Latter day Saints) have NEVER practiced compulsory marriage of any kind.
Today it is FLDS, but Look out Islam and Catholics, you are next. They are going to start calling it abuse to tell your children that they are no allowed to use birth control, or enter in to “gay marriage”
Where has America gone?!!
Cavetrollhead Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:20 pm.
One more thing, I do think intervention is needed to give post pubescent girls freedom. And if compulsory marriage is evidenced then some steps should be taken.
But this is Wako all over again. Luckily they prayed and sang while being attacked instead of bunkering themselves in, so no one got hurt.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:33 pm.
Cave, we’ve missed your passion and humor. I am so glad to feel some of that passion regarding this situation. It hits me deep in the heart and your words help. I am glad others see the dangerous precedent this is setting. It seems to me that the government sure wanted us to think this group was the same as the group at Wako. But from what I’ve read, we were even mis-informed about that group. Sad.
Pickles Says:
16 April 2008 at 12:55 pm.
E.E., I guess you have a point. I have a hard time with this but I do feel bad for those women and children.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 1:02 pm.
Pickles, I’m glad you have the ability to reason even though your emotions are offended by polygamy. These people are having their lives shredded.
Nalvy, I missed your comment earlier. Interesting comments, thanks.
Hank Says:
16 April 2008 at 1:04 pm.
All I know is that the picture of that poor mother breaks my heart.
Stumpy Says:
16 April 2008 at 1:24 pm.
Cave ole son I missed y’all around here. Jist about decided to go speelunkin to try an find ya. Anyhow I was thinkin of takin Cat and goin out on a recon mission to y’all know where. I figure its up ta me ta redeem the honor of my native state. Wanna come along?
S.J. Says:
16 April 2008 at 3:33 pm.
I’ll join you for that mission Stumpy. I’m not a Mormon but when I look at that woman’s face I think about the women out there who have kids that barely care about them. There is a whole hell of a lot of options besides kidnapping those children from their mamas. This burns me up.
Sbounty Says:
16 April 2008 at 5:08 pm.
These women have stood by and let grown men abuse their children. Once a person has broken the law they give up certain rights I.E. rights to their children. They have become accomplices to crimes. Statutory rape, child molestation, and abuse. I don’t understand how you people can stand by and say that you feel sorry for these people. These children deserve a stable home where they will not be abused or raped. I feel as though all of these women deserve jail time for letting this go on. I am LDS and it really makes me sick to think that there are members of the church that think something like this is ok to happen. (JOY) LDS family services are around for a reason and they could find loving and caring families for these kids.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 5:18 pm.
Sbounty, so you don’t think the way these women were raised gave them a perspective that makes them victims? I think they are victims and to victimize them further by taking their children without any chance to find a better solution seems beyond cruel. As I said, I think something should definitely be done to ensure they do not marry before eighteen. That is a given, but to give no second chance for the sake of saving families is very harsh.
As far as the abuse, that has not been proven even a little bit. Marriage at an early age isn’t seen by them as abuse and needs to be made clear so they can change that.
I can stand by and say I feel sorry for these women because I have empathy and I try to judge people by the standards they understand and not by the ones that are normal for me.
They should not be practicing polygamy but it isn’t nearly as bad as purposeful motherhood out of wedlock and living off the state. Not even close. So how can I be judgmental about people living that lifestyle? Actually I don’t blame those women either because most of them were raised that way but I feel that is more immoral and it perpetuates dishonesty and a socialist entitlement attitude.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 5:21 pm.
Sbounty, I should have added that even though we both hold strong feelings about this, you are very welcome to share your opinions. It would be sad to feel only people that agreed with me were wanted. Discussion, as long as handled with respect, is healthy.
Bryon Says:
16 April 2008 at 5:23 pm.
Sbounty, I don’t think you read carefully. Nobody condoned polygamy, no one. We are saying that Texas officials have broken their own laws, violated the constitution and crossed the moral boundaries they are expected to stay within. The children that were taken away are not all happy smiley to be “out of danger.” They are without familiar comforts and probably very miserable. Polygamy is bad and something needs to be done about it but this is not it. It doesn’t fix the problem it just creates victims. We need to convince them not to marry under 18.
P.S. These children are not going to be given to the LDS family services. The state social workers are going to take care of this and I have zero confidence in that organization.
Jesse Says:
16 April 2008 at 5:28 pm.
This reminds me of the people who say how evil George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were for having slaves. They don’t understand that we can’t judge them by our standards. Thinking on this changed over time. For their time they were very forward thinking and hoped for the day when slavery would end. That was thought of as pretty radical in their circles. It takes time for attitudes to change. If I time traveled back there and had slaves then it would be terrible because I know better. I am more accountable.
To take such a drastic step as adoption is not right when less drastic options haven’t been taken. I’m not Mormon but I know your church was persecuted for this in the eighteen hundreds. I wouldn’t think a Mormon would be so quick to judge. Give these people counseling and a chance to grow and make the decision to change so they can keep their kids. If most of us were raised like them we would be the same. I wouldn’t want to be thrown in jail. Actually I don’t think your church should have been persecuted for this. Freedom of religion should have covered that. Is it really worse than prostitution? I have a close friend who is Mormon and we have talked about this some.
avatar Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:17 pm.
First, I do not agree with the writer that these people are “no more Mormons than Baptists are Catholics.” Their religious history and heritage is Mormon. They think they are Mormon. In any case, “Mormon” is an unofficial term coined by non-Mormons for people who believe in the Book of Mormon and it certainly applies to members of the FLDS, however embarrassing that may be to the more mainstream Mormons in Salt Lake City.
I do agree that Texas authorities are treading on dangerous ground in their wholesale seizure of the children of this FLDS community. Certainly authorities should respond and investigate when a victim calls and reports a crime. But unless there is some evidence that all the children in the FLDS community really were being abused or in immediate danger of being victimized, I can see no legal justification for taking them all from their families. It is also absurd to argue that this separation from the only families they have ever known would not be highly traumatic for the children. Any parent should know better than that.
I sympathize not only with the children but also with the Texas authorities, who had to make a difficult call and who are now going to have to justify their actions. We’re going to hear a lot more about this.
CindyL. Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:18 pm.
These kids have been raised in such a pure environment that the shock of what questions they are being asked has to be incredible. I have been hearing some of the people that use to be a part of the community that have been interviewed. They are totally lying about saying they don’t even know who their own parents are. And that they are required to have a baby a year. I grew up in St.. George and these polygamists shop there. I have talked to a lot of them and I know these things are lies. I am way against them marrying young and I don’t like them marrying older men. I wish they wouldn’t live polygamy. But to say they are all robots and speak from a script is so not true. They are warm and friendly. These people who are telling lies remind me of some ex-Mormons I know who tell unbelievable lies about our church too.
E.E. Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:25 pm.
Avatar, the protestant churches broke away from the Catholic Church. The Methodist Church or some of the earlier ones would have been a better choice to use. So let’s say Methodist just for argument. They broke away from the Catholic Church and changed doctrines. The FLDS broke away from the Mormon church and changed a lot of doctrines. The two churches are very, very different. To equate the two would shock most Mormons who live and believe very differently.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:33 pm.
E.E., thank you. It was after midnight last night when I put that blog up. I meant to say Methodist with John Wesley leaving the Catholic Church. The Ana-Baptists were a much later group so thank you for straightening me out.
So, Avatar, I agree with most of what you said. I have known some FLDS and no one I know ever does call them Mormons and I’ve never heard them refer to themselves that way but maybe it’s just me. They shouldn’t call themselves Mormons because they aren’t, any more than Methodists are Catholics. When I see them in St. George, let me tell you, no one would ever mistakes one for a Mormon.
Joy Bischoff Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:39 pm.
I am wondering if we are just struggling with semantics. They do call themselves Fundamentalist Mormons a lot but of course for us, the first word changes the whole thing. That doesn’t bother me at all because it designates them as a completely different religion.
CindyL. Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:42 pm.
Joy, I just came on to write the same thing you just did. I agree that putting fundamentalist on the front totally changes it for me and doesn’t bother me.
Saddened Says:
16 April 2008 at 7:50 pm.
I’m not Mormon but I know if there was a group that was way different than mine, I would want people to know we were different.
Avatar, I thought what you said about the situation was very good and I feel sorry for both groups too. I hope they can find some compromise. What worries me is with kids like this who are so innocent, it could be easy for psychologists to manipulate them into saying things that aren’t true. We’ve seen this get so out of hand the last couple of decades. The authorities will feel they have to justify what they’ve done and it might make them put a spin on it even without really meaning to.
Jeezer Says:
16 April 2008 at 10:14 pm.
It seems to me that all it comes down to is if polygamy is legal or not. It isn’t. Case closed.
M.G. Says:
16 April 2008 at 11:38 pm.
No way. You don’t take kids away from their mothers without confirmed abuse. I have seen so much twisted crap with words being put into kids mouths. Kids like these will be so easy to manipulate. Out of 400 if only a few get out maneuvered by the pros then they’ll get stories they’ll slap on all of them. This isn’t going to turn out well. This makes me sick. I’m with Stumpy on this one.
Nalvy Says:
17 April 2008 at 12:22 am.
I agree with whoever was talking about the way they are raised (several people mentioned it…by the time I got down here I forgot the names.. sorry).
The point about slavery was extremely good. If someone is raised a certain way they believe that that way of life is correct. Look at modern day nazis or the Amish (I know they aren’t bad people…I think they are cool). If someone is raised exposed to certain behaviors and lifestyles they will want to follow the same.
While most of us can not condone the lifestyle of Polygamists we have to realize that many women in that sect are raised with the thought that women must be submissive and follow the rulings of their husbands. They are raised that way….if that is all they know who are we to condemn them?
Again I am not supporting polygamy I am just sympathizing with those poor women who have lost their children.
avatar Says:
17 April 2008 at 1:12 am.
Polygamy is against the law and it should not be encouraged; but I hope that isn’t seen as the issue here. Unless everyone involved keeps firmly in mind that the issues are child abuse and/or rape, we are going to be accusing FLDS members of one thing and finding them guilty because of something else.
I’m no expert on how investigations involving children are conducted, but I agree that it seems wrong to place these children in foster care just so they can be questioned more effectively. After all, where innocent adult witnesses to suspected crimes are questioned (and everyone concedes these kids are innocent) it would probably be considered outrageous to lock them up away from their families for more than a few hours of questioning. I can understand fears that parents might coach the kids in advance of sessions with investigators, but I would think that skilled investigators could get at the truth. Given the disoriented state these kids must be in, there probably is the danger of the present tactics producing “confessions” to things that they learn the investigators want to hear. I would hope, though, that the lawyers appointed by the Court are making sure that does not happen.
Angela Rogin Says:
17 April 2008 at 9:11 am.
Well thought out arguments, Avatar. The one thing that concerns me though is that there is so much documented evidence to show that skilled investigators do put words in children’s mouths. Someone on the thread made the point that the government is going to want to justify its actions and I hate to say it but I agree with those who think it is human nature to sway the facts to support the story. I hope the lawyers are honest (it could happen) and actually look out for the kids’ interests. The judge hears the case in just an hour. I am nervous.
Benjamin Says:
17 April 2008 at 9:59 am.
I don’t trust the authorities. If they want to see purple then they will start seeing purple everywhere. If they want to see silver chevys then they will pop up all over. You see what you want to see. I’ve seen too many shows like 20/20 that show too much manipulation of children by counselors to trust the results.
Sbounty Says:
18 April 2008 at 12:32 pm.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/17/polygamy.custody/index.html deny that. 13 year old little girls bearing children. These sick peices of crap are using religion as an excuse to be pedifiles. Shame on Texas… No shame on you for defending these people. Whats your next blog going to be about? Shame on the world for being against NAMBLA? Wake up people.
Joy Bischoff Says:
18 April 2008 at 1:19 pm.
Sbounty, apparently you didn’t take the time to read the comments. No one here thinks it is okay to see these people married below the age eighteen. I had a number of great-aunts married at fourteen because that was the culture of the time. They were not evil nor were their husbands who married them. It was their culture. We need to help these polygamous groups understand that marriage must wait until 18. Nor does anyone here believe it is okay to follow polygamy but we were raised differently than these people in Texas. They are not “sick pieces of crap”, they are human beings. I am having a hard time believing you are LDS. I don’t know any active LDS people who would be so hateful and judgmental. On this site we do not treat people disrespectfully. We can disagree without name calling and nastiness. Please be more respectful if you make further comments or I will remove them. Thank you.
T. Fan Says:
18 April 2008 at 1:32 pm.
Sbounty, it is probably a surprise to read that Joy would remove a disrespectful comment since what you wrote is normal for what goes on all over the web. But that is the reason I like coming here. We believe that open discussion is good and important but that America has become a rude place where manners are seldom practiced. The world use to be a much kinder place and we are trying to bring that back in our small circles. You can make the same points but doing it a respectful way is more productive. Say shame on us for how we feel but don’t call these women in Texas who are victims of a backward culture, sick pieces of crap. Have some empathy. I’m not Mormon but I know some Mormons and they seem like very kind people.
Sbounty Says:
18 April 2008 at 2:01 pm.
I am not calling the women sick, I am calling the men sick for their practices. I have 3 daughters and this is a very touchy subject for me, sorry if I seem to be a little harsh. Joy you I am sorry if I am not going along with everything everthing said on your blog. I have not said or done anything vulgar. As far as being judgemental, D&C 107: 74, Thus shall he be a ajudge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion, or in a stake of Zion, or in any branch of the church where he shall be bset apart unto this ministry, until the borders of Zion are enlarged and it becomes necessary to have other bishops or judges in Zion or elsewhere. I have every right to be judgemental when someone breaks the law. The fact is, if nothing is done about this the youger children will eventually fall victim just as the older ones have.
Joy Bischoff Says:
18 April 2008 at 2:08 pm.
Sbounty, I am sorry you are so upset. I have tried to make it very clear that you nor anyone else needs to agree with everything said on the blog. All I can do it say it again. I am glad you were not addressing the women in this situation. I seriously consider them victims. I am sorry that I have to disagree that using the term “sick pieces of crap” is vulgar but since it isn’t against these women it doesn’t bother me as much. I hope the women aren’t victimized again by losing their children. That would kill me to lose my kids. I also hope that they find a way to make sure children are not forced into marriage. Thank you for coming back and clarifying.
Carrie Says:
18 April 2008 at 2:14 pm.
Sbounty, I am sorry to that this is so upsetting for you. I can only try and imagine what it will be like when I have daughters and think of that happening to them.
I want you to know that Joy doesn’t ever try and force us to think like her. She always makes that very clear. We disagree on a lot of things around here and its okay.
My parents always taught me that we judge situations and actions but we shouldn’t judge people specifically. If I was a bishop then I would have to judge people for immoral actions and help them repent but I’m not these people’s bishop. I don’t know if these men are so brain washed that they don’t stand a chance of acting differently. That would make them just sick and not evil. We don’t know people’s hearts.
CindyL. Says:
18 April 2008 at 3:18 pm.
Sbounty, I can’t understand why you are so upset with Joy. Reread her blog. Her problem is that the women were victimized just like you think they are. Why victimize a victim more by stealing their children? Some middle ground could be found so that this practice of marrying young doesn’t continue but these women could still keep their children. That is what she was saying, she wasn’t in any way defending the practice or the men.
Sbounty Says:
18 April 2008 at 3:47 pm.
I am not upset with Joy, though my thought is this; These women think that having their children marry these “Holy men” will entitle them to eternall blessings. So with that being said do you think that it is possible to educate them on the errors of their ways? Would they accept the scientific bassis and reasoning on why it is bad for 13 year old children to have children? I can not seem to gather that much faith in my fellow man or woman. So how is it that we place these children back with their mothers and still protect them from the men on the compound? Maybe have a few seminars with Tony Robbins called 13 bad 18 good? I really do feel bad for the women in this ordeal, I could not imagin my children being taken away from either myself or my wife. But laws are made for a reason and that is to protect the inocent. Yes the younger children are safe with their famalies, but to what age? How can we place the children back in that environment until we can asure that these practices will be halted? I am very sorry if I have offended anyone I was mearly voicing my opinion and Joy if you would like I can cease posting on your page.
Sbounty Says:
18 April 2008 at 3:58 pm.
sorry about the spelling in my last post, I was in a hurry lol.
Joy Bischoff Says:
18 April 2008 at 4:04 pm.
Fast typing makes typos and has nothing to do with intelligence.
Listen, Sbounty, you are a passionate person who cares deeply about children. Why would we not want you around here? This place is different with our hope for respect but to be honest, I have occasionally slipped myself and called John McCain names and have had to apologize since I was breaking my own rules. So I I kick you out then I’ll have to kick myself out. We just keep trying to find a balance between passionate politics and respectful dialogue.
Actually, my personal idea about the Texas situation was to offer the women their children back if they agree to leave to compound and have a social worker assist them in building a new life. That way the women have a choice between their old life and their children. If it were me, I wouldn’t hesitate a second, I would choose my children.
Bryon Says:
18 April 2008 at 4:56 pm.
Sbounty, I think your post sounded angry but whether polygamy or our comments elicited it I don’t know. What I do know is that no one said they condone polygamy. We are all against it and are on your side. We are also saying that the victims are being victimised further and this is completly the wrong way to solve this problem. We do think it needs solving.
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