14 March 2008
Saving the Apple
Posted by Joy Bischoff under: Constitution in Peril .
Polarization into entrenched camps of thought is the poison that will destroy the conservative base of our country. Positions on the war, 9/11, and many other issues have the tendency to make each camp of thought actually feel angry and bitter toward the other camp. I have mentioned this before but it is something every one of us need to be reminded of so we keep our end goal in mind; finding enough common ground to hold together in order to work to preserve the Constitution.
Regarding those who believe that criticizing certain aspects of our government is being disloyal, perhaps we can admire their loyalty and fierce belief in everything American. We need that kind of love and loyalty.
Regarding those who believe that this is the greatest nation in the world with the greatest form of government, but that there are forces both within and without the government that will destroy our freedoms if not exposed and cleansed, maybe we can see this group as equally loyal but in a different way.
Compare America to an apple. If we closely examine the apple and see it is being invaded by worms, we want to remove them and save the apple. We are not attacking the fruit, we love that apple. Some tell us there are no worms because they want to believe the apple is sound. Do we stop trying to remove the worms because others do not see them and criticize us, believing we are denigrating the apple?
Most of you believe there may be worms. Where our disagreements lie is in how many worms there are. That’s okay, we are still good people trying our best. Personally, I am going to continue trying to remove the worms that I have detected because I love the apple so much and want it saved.
32 Comments so far...
Stumpy Says:
14 March 2008 at 2:25 pm.
Have we been bad again Teacher? Do we have to come to class on Saturday again?
Jan W. Says:
14 March 2008 at 2:34 pm.
Stumpy you just crack me up.
So I was wondering,
Stumpy Stumpy quite contrary how does your garden grow?
Are the carrots well so your shotgun shell
can find bunnies feeding in the row?
Joy Bischoff Says:
14 March 2008 at 2:38 pm.
Wow Jan, speaking of funny, that was hilarious. I remember that poem. My mom taught it to me when I was little; Mary, Mary quite contrary. Good one.
No, Stumpy, no one is in trouble. It is a very tense time in America right now and sometimes there are some tensions just a little here and I want to help keep our focus on the positive and shake off the differences.
Stumpy Says:
14 March 2008 at 2:47 pm.
Janny Janny quite contrary
how does your fat ass grow?
With cockles and burr
stuck in her fur
or do you tie up her tail with a bow?
T. Fan Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:29 pm.
haha I’m not sure which poem I like better. That is so dang funny.
Joy, I’m thinking there is a line that could be crossed by making people think we can’t discuss things here and have different opinions. If we all think the same and are afraid to say anything to offend other people then there won’t be good discussion. Don’t make it too vanilla. No creepy stuff but can’t we have a strong difference of opinion?
M.G. Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:37 pm.
I agree with T. Fan. It would be pretty boring to have to agree on everything. It seems like you were afraid you had offended Cavetrollhead and that’s why you wrote this. I didn’t see anything offensive that either of you wrote. You both just have strong feelings about things. He’s a big boy. He can take you disagreeing with him.
Jan W. Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:43 pm.
I loved this blog about the apple. It helps put everything into perspective for me and reminds me what is most important. I really don’t think she was saying we can’t disagree. In fact she was saying it is okay for us to disagree on how many worms are in the apple. She just wants to make sure our focus remains unity in saving the Constitution. We need reminding like kids. I tell my kids to be loyal to each other. I couldn’t have done it once and had that take care of it. I have to remind them every so often when I feel tensions between them or when I find out one of them trashed their sibling to other people.
Matt Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:46 pm.
Maybe she goes overboard just a little but I think it is because most discussion groups get such jerks and there is so much hate speech out there. Joy has said before that we can talk about whatever we want as long as we’re respectful. Except Stumpy and his dumb ass.
I think Joy gets uptight if she thinks she hurts someone’s feelings.
Peter Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:48 pm.
I think the moderators let way too much wild speculation go on here and even add to it. Conspiracy theories drives away most conservatives like that crap about the fed. They should stick to their mission statement and 3 purposes.
Pickles Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:51 pm.
Awesome poems Stumpy and Jan W.
No way Peter. This place is about the constitution and the very first amendment should be upheld. I didn’t see anything wrong with this blog. I think its all how you want to take it.
Joy Bischoff Says:
14 March 2008 at 3:58 pm.
Holy fishheads, I come here and find I have been psychoanalyzed.
I don’t mind criticism. It helps me try and find that narrow line. Maybe I did feel I hurt Chuck’s feelings yesterday and maybe I did feel I tried shoveling out too much info to Cave when he asked about the Fed. Maybe I shouldn’t worry about people getting their feelings hurt so much. I do really feel good about what I wrote in this blog and it at least helps me keep my perspective. I guess I don’t want to stifle conversation but I hope we don’t drive people away and I hope I can learn what subjects to be careful of myself that are a little too much for our readers. I can’t and won’t try and please everyone and I do want to encourage more opening of eyes to what is really going on but not to the point of making this exclusively a conspiracy theory site. That would defeat our purpose. Feel free to keep me in line in future.
Iffer Says:
14 March 2008 at 4:13 pm.
I think that people are too easily offended. If they get offended really easily over stupid things its not anyone’s fault but theirs… we don’t have to worry about being careful just because of them.
Saddened Says:
14 March 2008 at 5:00 pm.
I didn’t see anything wrong with this blog. I liked it. Maybe Joy’s first comment shows she is too careful about everyone’s feelings. I’ve kind of noticed her babying certain people that I didn’t think she should but she is just a softy.
Sharon Anderson Says:
14 March 2008 at 5:34 pm.
I love your analogy about the apple, Joy. I also appreciated what you posted about the Fed. I have heard at least one commentator point out that there really isn’t a conspiracy because conspiracies have a secret, covert element about them, while those who are working against our Constitution are very blatant about what they are doing. All we have to do is listen to what they are saying. It is interesting that when we then tell others what we have found out by going directly to “the horse’s mouth” that people want to call us conspiracy theorists.
I think If we keep in mind that one of the best ways to gain control of a country is to devalue its currency, then we see why it is so important to understand what the Fed is and what it is doing. If we do not understand the threats to our Constitution and our freedom how can we defend and protect them? I believe that sharing things that help us understand what is happening is very much in keeping with the purpose of this site. I do appreciate Peter’s concern about driving conservatives away. I don’t think any of us want to do that, but I also think there are some things that need to be said if we hope to save our country.
Ghost Says:
14 March 2008 at 5:54 pm.
I just went and reread the mission statement and purpose for the site and Sharon is right. We need to have the courage to identify threats to this country. It’s true that if we see different amounts of worms we shouldn’t get mad and think the other guy is an idiot. But the other guy needs to know that if we have a position that is based on lots of hard facts then they don’t have to agree but they shouldn’t think we’re idiots either. I think what gets to me the most is when people have an entrenched opinion that they are sure is right but they never did their homework to look into it carefully.
Stumpy Says:
14 March 2008 at 5:57 pm.
All y’all are weird. Why are ya so worried about saving that blasted apple? Wanta know what I do with my apples? I feed em to my ass and they end up as road apples.
E.E. Says:
14 March 2008 at 7:10 pm.
I see Stumpy has been keeping everyone entertained around here.
Sharon, I really liked what you had to say. You seem like a wise person.
Cavetrollhead Says:
14 March 2008 at 8:38 pm.
I like the apple analogy a lot too. And I think that this is a great site. I absolutely agree with Joy’s admonition.
I have to agree with Peter a little though, in that there are a lot of critical issues out there that need addressing and we may lose credibility by focusing on the fringe. I don’t mind looking like a fool, but I want to pick the time to look like a fool that does the most good. I don’t want to poison my own well Or, in other words I want to pick my self discrediting moments carefully, because credibility translates into influence. And influence is critically important, unless we aren’t interested in changing things but only want to make ourselves feel better by opining and professing.
On the other hand, we have to balance credibility with vigilance. We don’t do any good just going along with the party elders and we should display courage at the right times.
A good example of my point is Art Bell. Believe it or not he actually enlightens on his program on rare occasion. Just because he has chosen “open mindedness” (for lack of a better phrase) over credibility doesn’t mean that he never enlightens. But to say you heard it on Art Bell is more likely to detract from your credibility than bolster it. Therefore, I don’t think Art Bell is very influential.
But an even better example is Ron Paul. He lost credibility with the people, weather he was right on things or not. If he simply wished to get the issues talked about, then he succeeded. But if he wanted to become president, or to wield influence in the next few years, he blundered terribly by not choosing his platform and therefore his battles more carefully. His fringe platform discredited him in the eyes of the people.
So it just depends what the owners and moderators want this site land on the credibility/fringe continuum. Any place is honorable, but I would like influence is the key consideration.
Cameron Says:
14 March 2008 at 9:47 pm.
Cave, I like what you said a lot and agree with it. I try to be careful about credibilitly also. I read the thread about the fed and looked into it like Ghost did because it was new to me. I think it is clear that the moderators don’t think the info about the fed is fringe at all. Joy was kind of in a hard spot since you brought it up. To answer or not to answer? I have to agree with Joy from everything I read. The first maybe three quarters of what she wrote is just history. It’s in the books. The last part is up in the air for me and I will have to look into it more. I did watch the video of the Mexican president talking about the Amero so that is fact too but what I am hoping is that they fail to bring it about. I’ve got more to learn. But if this is true, it would be the same as the Germans keeping their mouth shut when Hitler came into power. This is huge. It does go along with the mission statement. Maybe you should look into it. There is so much about it with lots of quotes straight from the people involved like President Wilson.
Joy Bischoff Says:
14 March 2008 at 10:03 pm.
Cameron, I appreciate what you said but I’m thinking that maybe I will leave the Fed issue alone. There are a lot of things happening that are very important but the most important thing for us is to create an atmosphere of inclusiveness. That doesn’t mean I will baby anybody like I have apparently done, but I won’t focus on issues that although extremely important, will hurt our main goal. I had no idea this would be considered strange but apparently it can be. Almost everyone I have ever heard talk about it knows the Fed is out of control but that is probably just because I live in a state where most people have similar views. So this is a learning experience for me.
Peter Says:
14 March 2008 at 11:02 pm.
Finally I’m having some influence here. Glad some people are seeing reason. You need to dump a few of the crazier theories like believing our government would spy on any innocent person and that home schoolers are being targeted. Wake up people, no one is out to get us.
Ghost Says:
14 March 2008 at 11:07 pm.
This is bullcrap. I’ve never heard of anything like this. We should be able to discuss anything remotely reasonable about politics. If there are these kinds of gestapo tactics I’m out of here.
Sharon Anderson Says:
14 March 2008 at 11:35 pm.
Please don’t go Ghost. Different perspectives ARE important. Maybe we need to be patient while the IGWT hosts are trying to “fine tune” things and figure out how far to go. It seems that Peter (and others like him) might want to leave if things like the Fed ARE addressed, and that you (and perhaps others) feel like leaving if things like the Fed are NOT discussed. It just goes to show that you can’t please all the people all the time. I hope some others will express their opinions about discussing these controversial issues.
Re: “Wake up people, no one is out to get us.” I loved the bumper sticker I saw one time that said. “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you!”
Stumpy Says:
15 March 2008 at 12:12 am.
Whoa whoa whoa, people. Now sometimes I am forced to give up the joking and I just hate that so listen up. Some of you are putting these moderators in a very bad position. What the hell are they supposed to do? They can’t please all of you like Sharon said. They can’t wipe your asses for you. Now seriously, don’t be so touchy. Cave you brought up the whole fed thing and gave them glowing praise. Some of us have actually read a lot about this and know differently. Have you really carefully studied the history? Joy answered you and now you are irritated? She shouldn’t have to backtrack like this. Give her a break and if you don’t like something just skip it. I think your concern about respectability is overblown. You use a moniker and no one knows who you are. If someone figures it out you can always say you don’t agree with everything. It’s a day for meat and not just milk folks. Buck up.
Stumpy Says:
15 March 2008 at 12:13 am.
Cave at least you aint obnoxious like Peter. No man tells me what to talk about!
Cavetrollhead Says:
15 March 2008 at 1:23 am.
Wait a minute, Peter, Home schoolers are being targeted. Haven’t you been keeping up on the news about the decision in California? It made Rush’s show. It made a lot of shows. I wasn’t referring to that when I talked about the fringe.
And no, I am not irritated by Joy, Stumpy. Not in the least. I think joy is awesome! I was just trying to help. Getting rid of the Fed is a fringe issue weather it is a good idea or not. (And I think would be a terrible thing as well as would getting back on the Gold standard.) But weather it is a good idea or not wasn’t my point. I don’t think some of you understood what I was trying to say. Focusing on issues that make almost everyone roll their eyes may stunt our influence. And I didn’t say that we are doing that too much. I was trying to suggest we be wary not to - that we MIGHT be heading that way. I was just putting it out there as a possibility. I know it might be wrong. I also said explicitly that it is up to the moderators to decide what to talk about - it is obviously not up to me.
(Also if you will recall, I suggested that the Fed be a blog of its own so we could hash it out)
I am not trying to be critical of Joy. I am sorry it sounded that way. I was just trying to make a suggestion. I just want the best for the site because I think it is a great site. I want it to be influential. I think that I am trying to ’save the apple,’ the site being the apple. (Not that it really needs saving. I think it is doing great) I have been posting here for months now and I have not been antagonistic. I had no idea that I was today.
And, Joy I actually appreciated the info on the fed.
Just so you know, I think Peter’s cynicism is way over the top, but I think he has something to offer.
Finally Ghost, I never told anyone what they could talk about. I just gave my two cents how I think we can be most influential. I believe that anyone here can talk about whatever they want to- myself included. Heck, if someone wants to talk about Lizard people ruling the world -let them. Just don’t expect me to let it go unchecked so as not to hurt anyone’s feelings. Why? Because I think anyone posting should be open to contradiction. I don’t think that is unreasonable.
Last week, Chuck caught a lot of flak because he was simply airing ideas. But I thought he was being remarkably open and circumspect. He was trying not to run with ideas blindly. He was trying to add fodder to enlightening conversation. That is all I have tried to do.
Ghost Says:
15 March 2008 at 11:55 am.
Cave, I wasn’t mad at you. I was mad at Peter. He was definitely attacking Joy and her experiences with government surveillance. Plus he was trying to specifically tell us what we should be able to talk about. That is very controlling. I don’t think you were attacking Joy though I think that since you are the one that brought up the fed in the first place, you probably shouldn’t think it is strange that Joy answered.
E.E. Says:
15 March 2008 at 12:22 pm.
Cave, I for one never thought you were attacking Joy. You have always seemed so polite and thoughtful. I think where people have the issue is that you brought up the fed and then later said we shouldn’t discuss something that is on the fringe like that.
As far as Chuck, he is very intelligent and has been a big asset around here. He adds a lot. But I get a little irritated when he plays games with us. More than once he has said that he made comments only to get discussion going and that he didn’t really mean what he said. Maybe it is just me but that feels like manipulation to me and I prefer straightforward candor. I don’t think it is a really big deal though. He is a pussy cat compared to Peter who seems to enjoy being contrary. At least Chuck has a reason for stirring things up whether I like how he does it or not.
Joy Bischoff Says:
15 March 2008 at 12:49 pm.
Cave,
You have never been rude to me. My heart always lifts when I see your moniker on here. I hope you don’t get discouraged and leave us. As far as Peter goes, he is calling me a liar when he talks about no innocent person being under surveillance. In doing that, it isn’t only me but my husband, my children, a few relatives, and a close friend and her children. All these people have been witnesses to or effected by the events through the years. I have thought a lot about how I want to handle this kind of thing. I will go now and write that on Roy’s blog.
Pickles Says:
15 March 2008 at 1:23 pm.
E.E. you stole everything I wanted to say.
Cavetrollhead Says:
16 March 2008 at 12:46 am.
You know, I never made the connection that Peter was talking about Joy’s experience. If I had I would have understood better what you all were talking about. Wow I was pretty dense there. I thought he was just referring to the general issue of Gvt. authorized surveillance Sorry Joy.
I think it is fringe to think that individuals in the government don’t spy on innocent private citizens. Where the power exists, and where enough people have that power, abuses will happen. I think the only argument is weather the good outweighs the bad. I just assume that people abuse their power. Weather it is a cop tazing a citizen without cause, or spying on people-to assume it never happens is just naive. If you think individuals don’t abuse power in gvt, you are living in la la land. Spying is no exception.
No offense to Peter. I like your cynicism. I healthy dose of it keeps the standard of truth rigorous around here, but I think you overdosed on that last comment.
Bryon Says:
16 March 2008 at 10:03 pm.
Peter, the Fed is a big worm in this apple. The core is full of them and the fed isn’t in the core so we should focus more on that but whether or not you see the Fed as bad it is. In my Mom’s mind the Fed is not even close to the fringe. It is close to the center. Your area of knowledge is probably like a bottle cap on a saucer. She knows way more than most people.
If anybody doesn’t think law abiding citizens are being watched then they are naive and ignorant. Ignorance has a cure. I can testify that my family has been spied on and is spied on. My Mom knows many things and people I don’t know are scared. I bet Stumpy is really jealous because all he has to talk to at his house is his own fat ass. I have an incredible Mom.
This is an amazing place and I cant find another like it anywhere. I think the people on this site are all true to the constitution and love this country as much as I do. Even Peter. We just wont be ignorant and focus our attention on a small dot all the time.
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